Vertex colors

[MrAdults]

I think it was someone else... Like ganjii or something like that got into it with mc.

Oh, my bad. So we have ganjul, gjinka, and gjinka2. And only 2 of them are the same person? What the hell is with these names.

Anything technical that requires specialized knowledge and some experience with it goes over my head.

That's why I like to recommend Microsoft docs when it's an option. They usually do a good job with descriptions and occasionally even examples. Their OpenGL and D3D docs in particular are very readable and don't tend to rely on obscure terminology at all.

By the way, unrelated again, but not sure if I'll get to Queen's Blade or not tonight after all, having some unexpected issues on my contract project. And I kind of want to write the UV previewer for Noesis before I get to it. I apologize for any inconvenience this may cause for our forum members in delaying their plans to masturbate horribly from the depths of emotional and sexual depravity to crude models of cartoon girls. In the mean time, feel free to use and contribute to Mr.Mouse's babe thread, although I realize that for many 2D representations of real women simply can't compare.

[finale00]

I guess microsoft docs are ok. I've tried reading their DDS docs but it was still pretty technical to me. Then again those were specs and not really "what is it?"

lol no rush. There's plenty of services that will provide sufficient amounts of entertainment for the night
But ya if you get that done, that's three games in one.

[gjinka2]

When I see someone doing something silly, I will tell them they are doing something silly...

Really? That's your argument? "I say what I think"? Giving "constructing criticism" after it doesn't change what you said before.
I, for example, after what you said in these posts find you a douchebag, or drunk, or both, but I don't tell you you are one, not because your username is painted green, but because there is this thing many people call "politeness".

BTW, I only contributed to the page, I didn't write all of it. So I'm not the only one who should get offended. And dinoguy gave permission to finale to link the page from the main wiki page, so it doesn't seem he finds a guide like this "silly" either.

1) Take the advice.

I did. It doesn't mean I agreed with all of it, but I didn't ignore it as well. I did agree on some points, but like I said, I simply don't have the required knowledge to make the changes myself (ex. don't know what tessalation and cutting are).

I recall you were big on 3 in another thread with mariokart64, so I'm not surprised you've chosen this marvelous and appealing option in your dealings with me. Let me be the first to congratulate you on a path well-chosen.

Sir, whatcha talkin bout?

I personally think that re-describing core rendering components is pretty redundant, like I already said, so I see no reason to edit what you've written short of removing it entirely and just linking directly to existing documentation and wiki articles that cover the same information.

And I personally don't. It seems I'm not the only one who thinks this way.

I should think you might be interested in improving it yourself instead of inviting me to come in and destroy it all.

Like I said, others find it useful and if by "destroying" it you mean removing the page, I'm sure most people will be disappointed. However, if you mean rewriting most of it, then yeah, it's a wiki. However, as some people find it useful the way it is, maybe we should discuss it in the talk page.


Anyway, you know we spent our time because we wanted to help others and you come here and tell us it's trash and useless, only then suggest how to improve it. So I say, cut us some slack.

[finale00]

I'm still split between "understanding what it is" vs "knowing what I'm seeing/what to find"
Some people find it easier to understand the theory behind it and then go for it, while others like me just want to know what there is and will figure out some patterns along the way.

Maybe the first part should just be "this is what you might see" and then a link to another page that goes into detail about what it is. At least if this were programming, I'd arrange it that way.

Like, seeing that I only need this and that for animations doesn't make it any easier to actually load them lol

[MrAdults]

I love how you can so easily take "It's a bit silly, but here's what you should be doing" and turn it into "It's trash and useless!" in order to justify a mini-lecture on "politeness" which is completely invalidated by your own childish passive-aggressive remarks. Are you sure you aren't ganjul? You'd have to be pretty far-removed from reality to take genuine offense at anything I said. It's also very constructive and focuses on telling you your mistakes and how to present information in an organized, useful manner. You seem to focus on being upset over the fact that I called re-inventing the wheel "silly." Well, sorry, but re-inventing the wheel is something I think of as rather silly.

finale00, it sounds like you need exactly what I suggested in the itemized "common real-world uses" list. An itemized list for this purpose is also so much more useful than a jumbled up paragraph mentioning random tidbits which are somewhat inaccurate and not particularly related to each other in the same sub-context. There is good reason to have this page (mainly for those real-world uses - we can already look in plenty of places to figure out what these components *are*), it just makes little to no sense to be re-inventing (partially inaccurate) descriptions of the components.

Anyway, my 2 cents. Feel free to be terribly offended at my refusal to walk on eggshells for you.

[finale00]

A list of things that I should be looking out for, along with how they are usually represented (vertex coords as 4 byte floats or 2 byte floats, 4x4 matrices, etc) would probably be nice.

When I see that coords could be floats or half-floats it probably automatically makes me go "ok if floats don't work then let's try throwing half-floats at it"

I will move all of the explanations into a "glossary" of sorts, where each concept would contain some summary as well as a link to appropriate references.
No one likes to have to look around thousand-pages of docs to find what they care about, and that's usually what reading these kind of docs is about. Saves myself from having to look around trying to decide if it's useful information, since I don't even know where to start.

I don't think it is too important for a reverse engineer to completely understand how they are used, though it might provide insight on why the format was stored that way I guess.

[MrAdults]

Common storage methods is a good thing to have too, yeah. But again, you can get most common types right out of OpenGL/D3D API docs. There are some additional types you may not find in non-hardware-specific API docs, though, which are still worth mentioning generically. Like the X10Y10Z10/X10Y11Z10/etc. types ideally/commonly used for storing normals. (and occasionally tangent vectors - but technically they can be used to store lots of different data types) If you start getting too much into platform-specific types, though, you'll want to be careful not to bloat the main components page with overly-elaborate explanations. So I'd keep it limited to raw data types rather than getting into specific storage conventions with custom headers or whatever else. (like if you wanted to cover PS2 VIFcode, I wouldn't put the actual specs on the same page as your common data types, but I'd probably link to it from that page because it does relate to the topic and linking to it lets the reader know that it's a possible means of data storage to be aware of... although VIFcode in particular relates to the storage and rendering of all components and not any one in particular, it just also happens to be a standard which also dictates the actual component formats)

[gjinka2]

I love how you can so easily take "It's a bit silly, but here's what you should be doing" and turn it into "It's trash and useless!"

Nope, you said just a bit later that you found it useless and would probably end up removing it all if it was for you.

You seem to focus on being upset over the fact that I called re-inventing the wheel "silly." Well, sorry, but re-inventing the wheel is something I think of as rather silly.

"You look ugly! Sorry, just being honest."

And again, arguing this to be "reinventing the wheel" seems wrong anyway:

...you are basically asking "what is the point of reading a general philosophy book if you can just read the works of all the famous philosopers?" maybe we don't have the time nor the knowledge?

finale00 seems to give the same reasons:

No one likes to have to look around thousand-pages of docs to find what they care about, and that's usually what reading these kind of docs is about.

But apparently, I'm just overreacting and not taking criticism which you so generously provide. And of course you are not being rude now by calling me childish.
Puh-lease.

[howfie]

Can we just forget anyone ever said anything lol? Don't worry gjinka, Rich has even been critical of a thing or two that I have done (like in the Tekken Hybrid thread), but we all get along. I don't get offended; it happens all the time. I've been to CS poster presentations at conferences and let me tell you them visiting Chinese professors will walk up to your work and try and rip you a fucking new one. I've even seen it get so bad that other professors have had to step in and intervene. It doesn't matter if your work is 100% right or not. The worst thing we can do is get into a massive back and forth. So let's just forget everything and continue on having fun ripping games. Besides, I think Rich mistook you for someone else who gave mariokart a hard time in the DOA thread which is why he might have come across as being somewhat mean.

[MrAdults]

Besides, I think Rich mistook you for someone else who gave mariokart a hard time in the DOA thread which is why he might have come across as being somewhat mean.

That really isn't the case. At least, I've been no more mean than I'm "mean" to anyone who I feel a need to correct in whatever they're doing. If you look back at what I actually said, it doesn't even resemble what this guy is accusing me of.

Claim:

Nope, you said just a bit later that you found it useless and would probably end up removing it all if it was for you.

Reality:

I personally think that re-describing core rendering components is pretty redundant, like I already said, so I see no reason to edit what you've written short of removing it entirely and just linking directly to existing documentation and wiki articles that cover the same information.

(further note that this refers specifically to what *you* wrote in that jumbled paragraph about vertex colors, which from an objective standpoint does not have any content that I could keep with the goal of presenting that information correctly - and is only in reply to you telling me that it's a wiki, so I should be the one to go edit what you've written... I guess instead of engaging in the terrible sin of making suggestions to you)

Claim:

Anyway, you know we spent our time because we wanted to help others and you come here and tell us it's trash and useless

Reality:

It seems a bit silly to be writing new explanations of what common rendering components are, when you can instead pick and pull from pages with rather complete information on their use and behavior. Like official OpenGL/D3D implementation documentation from any given vendor. Microsoft docs are usually a good source.

But apparently, I'm just overreacting and not taking criticism which you so generously provide. And of course you are not being rude now by calling me childish.
Puh-lease.

I, for example, after what you said in these posts find you a douchebag, or drunk, or both, but I don't tell you you are one, not because your username is painted green, but because there is this thing many people call "politeness".

I'm sorry, your blatantly self-defeating statement may have been more appropriately classified as ironic and naive, instead of childish.

I had no issue with you personally when I first posted a critique of your documentation methods here, but with the bizarre way in which you've internally twisted my meaning and intention and repeatedly accused me of saying things that I simply did not say or even imply, you've demonstrated to me that you're not someone I should be interacting with or assisting in any way. So good luck writing poor documentation and getting pissed off at people that make suggestions to you in the future, I won't be one of them!

[gjinka2]

1)

Claim:
Reality:

uhh

Nope, you said just a bit later that you found it useless and would probably end up removing it all if it was for you.

so I see no reason to edit what you've written short of removing it entirely and just linking directly to existing documentation and wiki articles that cover the same information.

2)

Claim:
Reality:

Nope, this is the "reality":

I personally think that re-describing core rendering components is pretty redundant, like I already said, so I see no reason to edit what you've written short of removing it entirely and just linking directly to existing documentation and wiki articles that cover the same information. I should think you might be interested in improving it yourself instead of inviting me to come in and destroy it all.

self-defeating statement

Nope. Just saying I *didn't* just say what I think of you prior to that post.

So good luck writing poor documentation

See below.

and getting pissed off at people that makes suggestions to you in the future

I like how you misrepresent that if I'm getting pissed off at your suggestions, not the other stuff you said like it seeming silly and you likely ending up removing it. I know that I did write some wrong (and "jumbled") things, but like I said, I don't know enough to correct it.

[MrAdults]

I'm not misrepresenting anything. I didn't say anything offensive at all in my initial post, yet you immediately got your panties in a bundle and twisted my sentiment that re-inventing the wheel is silly into somehow meaning that all of your work is trash and useless, then invited me to fix it myself. I clearly explained to you why I thought re-inventing the wheel is silly and explained that I would indeed destroy all (or perhaps most) of your writing if I were to rewrite it myself, and for good, constructive reasons. Not simply because I hate you. Because I didn't hate you, until a post or 2 ago when you confirmed to me that you're a man with a fragile ego who is unable to take helpful criticism unless it's presented to you as it would be to a 10 year old.

uhh

Enough said, really.

[gjinka2]

twisted my sentiment that re-inventing the wheel is silly into somehow meaning that all of your work is trash and useless

That's what I mean when I say you misrepresent what happened. You are claiming (again) that all I said was directed to your initial post, but it's not, I posted that after your second post.

I clearly explained to you why I thought re-inventing the wheel is silly
...
and for good, constructive reasons.

So? I asked for explanation of why you were rude? Does explaining why one was rude make him not rude? Or does being constructive justify being rude?

Enough said, really.

Well, I don't see why I should care reading what you will say either then.

[MrAdults]

Does explaining why one was rude make him not rude?

Nope.

does being constructive justify being rude?

Nope.

Does accusing someone of being rude mean make them rude?

Nope.

Is falsely quoting someone under the guise of a passively insulting handle a rude thing to do?

Why yes, it certainly is.

Well, now you're just proving my point. You poor, simple, drunken douchebag.

That's because I hate your lesser self now, because he's attempted to take his butthurt reaction to legitimate criticism and justify it by claiming that a completely reasonable comment about the silliness of re-inventing descriptions of 3D rendering components is "rude". As if that wasn't enough, he invited me to fix his work, and then turned around and accused me of calling it useless trash when I explained that I would end up destroying all of his work. (and as such chose to offer him criticism to give him the chance to correct his own work, likely learning and growing as a person in the process)

I'm sorry. It's all because of mother. She had such high expectations of me, and I feel every day of my life is just another disappointment to her.

I know, son. I know. I forgive you.

I'm happy that this is resolved now. You seem like a good guy after all, gjinka. I'm sorry I hurt your feelings, and now I understand that you're just another person, like me, and I empathize with you. I'm glad we had this talk, and I hope there are no hard feelings.