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3D model reversing compilation

Post questions about game models here, or help out others!
gjinka2
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Re: 3D model reversing compilation

Post by gjinka2 » Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:19 pm

Can we have these pages linked from the wiki's main page?

Kinda hard to find the tut unless people see your forum post in this thread.

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Re: 3D model reversing compilation

Post by finale00 » Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:59 pm

I would like a link to the tutorial category somewhere so anyone can access all tutorials quickly.

Then I'd like a spot for 3D stuff under the "Game formats and specifications" section rather than clumping it with just "Game File Formats"

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Re: 3D model reversing compilation

Post by Dinoguy1000 » Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:15 pm

gjinka2 wrote:I mean the forum

http://www.bugmenot.com/
Okay, but which account? The only ones bugmenot has listed for the forum are "bm1", "bmn", "bugmenott", and "abcpoker".
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Re: 3D model reversing compilation

Post by gjinka2 » Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:53 am

You have been permanently banned from this board.

Please contact the Board Administrator for more information.

Reason given for ban: Added his account to bugmenot
gjinka

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Re: 3D model reversing compilation

Post by Dinoguy1000 » Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:12 am

Dinoguy1000 wrote:The only ones bugmenot has listed for the forum are "bm1", "bmn", "bugmenott", and "abcpoker".
This is for forum.xentax.com on bugmenot; xentax.com is blocked. Do you know if the username "gjinka" was listed under "xentax.com" before "xentax.com" was blocked? If so, I'll just unblock it; otherwise, I'm going to have to find out who actually blocked you and ask them what's going on with it.
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Re: 3D model reversing compilation

Post by gjinka2 » Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:34 am

Dunno. Maybe. Ive given my login to a friend once, maybe it was a joke.

Anyway, how about linking the 3d stuff from the main wiki page?

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Re: 3D model reversing compilation

Post by Dinoguy1000 » Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:46 pm

The main page needs a lot of work. One of these days I'm going to have to sit down and rewrite the whole thing, I think, but I keep putting it off. =D
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Re: 3D model reversing compilation

Post by finale00 » Wed Feb 01, 2012 12:36 am

I can do it if if I'm given the appropriate permissions.

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Re: 3D model reversing compilation

Post by Dinoguy1000 » Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:23 am

I knocked the protection down to semi (meaning registered users can edit it), so you should be able to work on it now. Now, here's hoping the vandals don't come en masse...
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Re: 3D model reversing compilation

Post by finale00 » Wed Feb 01, 2012 7:31 am

lol it got trashed within 12 hours.
Well I've made my changes. The security can go back up.

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Re: 3D model reversing compilation

Post by Dinoguy1000 » Wed Feb 01, 2012 8:43 am

All right, will-do.
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Re: 3D model reversing compilation

Post by finale00 » Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:42 pm

Getting started with model reversing can be an easy or hard task depending on the kind of skills the user already has, how quickly she can learn the tools and ideas, etc.

Well at least for me, although I understood hex pretty quickly and the basics of 3D easily since there are text formats to work with, I imagine a lot of people probably can't get their heads around the hex reading. Asking a couple peers to try to identify a format shows that probably a lot of people will stare at it as a wall of stuff, and then analyze it one byte at a time rather than looking at the big picture and grouping stuff together.

Maybe we should rank formats based on their relative level of difficulty with respect to core 3D concepts.

For example, given the metasequoia 3D format (plain text file), it only defines materials, meshes, and their vertices/faces. That's PROBABLY as minimal as it gets for a usable format that can generate all sorts of cool things. It doesn't even support normals or bones/weights unless you include plugins which then makes it messy.

Shaiya Online model has been used in tutorials, and I'd say it is also fairly basic.

Then you have chunk-based formats which one may argue that they are also simple because you just have to identify that it's chunk-based.

A set of criteria can be developed to help with the ranking.

Any format that contains a bunch of "other" information typically used by the game engine and other things would probably make it a little harder than "basic".

We shouldn't consider things like encryption/compression/other methods to obscure the data, cause that has nothing to do with the actual 3D model.

3D model formats will then be categorized in the wiki under the difficulty levels.

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Re: 3D model reversing compilation

Post by finale00 » Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:32 am

I've updated the model reverse guide by moving the descriptive explanations to a glossary page.
Logically that should be separated from a guide that's supposed to tell you how to do things and what you're looking for, not understanding the concepts behind it.

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Re: 3D model reversing compilation

Post by gjinka2 » Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:47 pm

Maybe it should be in a separate page, I don't know. I know the Definitive Guide to Exploring File Formats explains some concepts itself, like what bits, bytes, strings, hex numbering, signed and unsigned, bitwise operators, compression and encryption, common archive types and common types of fields like filesize, fileoffset are.
I think because you are not supposed to know all that before starting actually exploring it. Same goes to this guide. You probably know some of these concept, but not necessarily, but even if you do, you might still not know how they are represented in the file (like if you have some experience with bones in 3d modellers, you probably never thought of them as matrices or even know what matrices are).
Actually I think if you know the concepts and you know how they are represented in the file, there isn't much left to learn. Sure, we can explain what tools can be used, but other than that there isn't much. DGTEFF mainly explains concepts itself.

Either way, I see no difference in having the explanations in another page. But I think a section instead of another page would still work.

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Re: 3D model reversing compilation

Post by finale00 » Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:43 pm

From personal experience, a guide with full working samples that explains what is going on is more useful than theory.
I mean, most people get stuck at reading hex (maybe that's the problem, they are reading it and not just grouping stuff together).

We've all developed techniques that get things done (whether it's disassembling something or just whipping out a calculator), and maybe quickly, and if people know them it should make things a lot easier.

Maybe we should get someone that has some programming ability but no 3D reversing experience and tell them to figure out a simple format using a set of guidelines lol

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