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Dead or Alive series formats and tools

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howfie
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Re: Dead or Alive series formats and tools

Post by howfie » Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:44 pm

Somebody say they need a standalone tool? For which doa game?

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Re: Dead or Alive series formats and tools

Post by gjinka2 » Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:26 am

Honestly mariokart, I don't see why you draw a line between Blender and "standalone tools", there isn't any difference, here is why:
mariokart64n wrote:First of all, you make your plugin/script depentant of the parent package, if for some reason, Blender changes the API (or Max, or Noesis) your script/plugin stops working, and that's the case of plenty of outdated scripts I found arround; they no longer work.
So? You can always have another version of Blender for an outdated plugin. Blender doesn't require installation and is relatively small in size. So in this sense there is no difference between using another version of Blender or just using a "standalone program" for every format.
Another thing is that you have to know how to use the given package. Not everybody here knows how to use Max or Blender here
The same way you will need to know how to use the standalone programs, except unlike Blender, you will need to learn more than once: for every tool.

As explained already, you'll only need to learn 0.1% of Blender to be able to import a format and export it to the one you want. Really, all you need to know is that importers and exporters are located at top-left corner of the screen, when you click "File".
I really don't see how this requires more learning than any standalone tool.
You can make masterpieces with Photoshop, it doesn't mean you'll need to learn all of it if you just need to crop an image. Writing another program which will only crop image will sound pointless here.
About Noesis, it's a great tool, but last time I checked, there's no source code available, so any plugins developed for Noesis are bound to the life and maintenance of Noesis itself. If the author stops developing it for whatever reason, all those third party plugins will have been wasted.
This doesn't make sense to me. "If the author stops developing it for whatever reason, all those third party plugins will have been wasted.". Why? It's not like you will magically not be able to use it when it stops being developed. And there is no difference if that will happen to Noesis and a program made specifically for one format.
the key is they're "stand alone" and can keep running years later.
This doesn't make sense to me either.
I think you again draw a line between Blender and "stand alone" tools without a valid reason.
1) all versions of Blender are available for download from the official site
2) Blender doesn't require installation, which means you can have as many on a single machine as you want
3) Blender is pretty small in size

So again I see no difference in Blender and another program made for a single format.

I think you just have the wrong impression because you think you can't have more than one Blender at a time, so you think you can't use old script and new scripts at the same time. Maybe 3dsmax is like that, so I don't blame you for the way you think.

On the other hand, compare scripts (which are always human readable) of Blender or Noesis with complex OpenGL code of standalone tools (if the sourcecode is available that is) and I'll choose the first any time.

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Re: Dead or Alive series formats and tools

Post by drunkenchipmunk » Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:08 pm

gjinka2 wrote: So? You can always have another versio
This doesn't make sense to me either.
I think you again draw a line between Blender and "stand alone" tools without a valid reason.
1) all versions of Blender are available for download from the official site
2) Blender doesn't require installation, which means you can have as many on a single machine as you want
3) Blender is pretty small in size

So again I see no difference in Blender and another program made for a single format.

I think you just have the wrong impression because you think you can't have more than one Blender at a time, so you think you can't use old script and new scripts at the same time. Maybe 3dsmax is like that, so I don't blame you for the way you think.

On the other hand, compare scripts (which are always human readable) of Blender or Noesis with complex OpenGL code of standalone tools (if the sourcecode is available that is) and I'll choose the first any time.
Well, I don't pretend to begin a flamewar or anything, obviously, everybody has an opinion on how things should be done. I guess you have a background on using blender and you're trying to favour using it. In my case, I am a veteran programmer, and also know 3dsmax quite well. In my case, I would choose "complex opengl source code" over "readable scripts" anytime.

I tried to use blender a few times in the past and found the learning curve very steep, and its user interface very awkward. I even contacted the developers a few times regarding this, and the impression they gave me was pretty much the same as the Linux or Apple zealots, that is: "our way, or GTFO". I also know it has a very small footprint and multiple versions can be installed concurrently, but the point is, if you haven't battled a bit with blender for a while, even the most basic tasks become difficult. I also found a lot of blender export plugins very faulty, specially the collada ones; there's no point in succesfully import a game model, if when you export it to some other file format it appears totally broken. Please, don't misunderstand me; I totally support Blender, for being an open source project, and being a programmer myself, I appreciate the huge effort behind it... but, when dealing with file formats, my experience tells me the most important thing is to try to describe the format in the easiest way possible: The best way is to write a document describing the structures, the next best way is to write a plain reader, in plain C language, because most programmers of any language will probably understand it, and accompanied with a command line, stand alone tool.

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Re: Dead or Alive series formats and tools

Post by howfie » Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:43 pm

I use what I'm fastest at. I don't have time to learn maxscript, the blender-python api, mel, or anything else. I've been using C++ since 1993... ain't nothing faster for me than C++ and the Windows Platform SDK. Using anything else will just slow me down. I'm already slow enough as it is since reversing assets already takes days and weeks of my time. Saying I know Maxscript or Python or Noesis also won't help me get that game programming job with Activision Santa Monica that I want. Whether or not anyone gets anything out of my tools or my code is not important to me at all; that you guys get anything out of my tools is secondary.

Those are my goals. What are yours? I think you'll see the people who write standalone tools versus those who like to use scripting languages and modeler APIs have very different goals, and we have to respect that. For example, I don't even care about the models I extract. For me, it's all about the C++ code that I write. Chrrox and "That Crazy Polish Guy" sczharldiduiek or whatever lolololol have done quite well around here with maxscript and the blender-python api so I won't say they are bad; they are just not for me and I think my goals are different from theirs.

J/K guys, I sincerely hope that you guys get a lot from my tools and my released code and that we all get jobs in the game industry one day :gulp: :gulp:. Where's the :beer: icon?!

BTW, back on topic, I ordered DOA4 and it should come in a few days... :-D. Batch ripper here we gooooo...... Hopefully Tecmo doesn't get sue happy again because they don't have to go very far to sue me lol. Not that they can sue me for much. I need a job. I can walk to their Del Amo mall headquarters in about 20 minutes. I would gladly work for Tecmo too ha ha ha.
Last edited by howfie on Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:56 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Dead or Alive series formats and tools

Post by b0ny » Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:46 pm

howfie wrote:Whether or not anyone gets anything out of my tools or my code is not important to me at all; that you guys get anything out of my tools is secondary.
imho
what the hell are you talking about -- this is the most important thing in the universe, to give people the power to customize their games, to give them the smell of victory when they feel that they can change something. computers are the dumbest invention in the history, while it were supposed to give people the power of a super-brain it became a curse for the humanity by ignoring the users needs and trying to substitute the way of freedom with some freak capitalist model of making money of nothing. thanks god there are people that are trying to fix the situation by making tools that help people, mostly kids to get involved in the computer science. and you in the first place should be the man(or an angry transvestite cookie, whatever) of idea. if you're so smart you should start some project that will help the modders to become more productive, your project will become famous and this will bring you somewhere for sure. please don't take my words seriously. :)

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Re: Dead or Alive series formats and tools

Post by howfie » Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:09 pm

You know bony, I thought about that too, getting involved in a modding project. But reversing a format completely to the point where you can mod it is overkill for me. I'm more interested in what vertex formats a game uses, how does it implement bones and animation, how to implement the different type of maps that these games use, how can I get these models and levels to render efficiently in my own application, and should a file format be k-ary tree based like collada/pssg or a simple packed binary file format. I don't want nude models, I don't want to play RE5 with Excella rather than Sheva, I just want an f-ing job programming games, which is why you guys are secondary lol.

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Re: Dead or Alive series formats and tools

Post by finale00 » Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:19 pm

I also look at model formats for the sake of looking at model formats, not for people to mod games. Like really, just turn that MUGEN thing into a 3D project and now you've got your own 3D models with their own moves.

I'd rather people create their own games and make something innovative rather than feeding that capitalist pig people talk about.
drunkenchipmunk wrote: The best way is to write a document describing the structures, the next best way is to write a plain reader, in plain C language, because most programmers of any language will probably understand it, and accompanied with a command line, stand alone tool.
That's something a lot of people seem to neglect: writing documentation and format specs. It's not like they have to be very detailed...but at least more than just "contact me if you need anything"

While understandable, usually you'd think people would draft out specs before going ahead and writing the code?

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Re: Dead or Alive series formats and tools

Post by b0ny » Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:27 pm

howfie wrote:You know bony, I thought about that too, getting involved in a modding project. But reversing a format completely to the point where you can mod it is overkill for me. I'm more interested in what vertex formats a game uses, how does it implement bones and animation, how to implement the different type of maps that these games use, how can I get these models and levels to render efficiently in my own application, and should a file format be k-ary tree based like collada/pssg or a simple packed binary file format. I don't want nude models, I don't want to play RE5 with Excella rather than Sheva, I just want an f-ing job programming games, which is why you guys are secondary lol.
give yourself one more chance and think again. i'm not talking here about entertainment, i'm talking about work. can you work(for free)? the hard work is the key of success for everything. almost all famous people are hard-workers. you can't compete with other workers -- there is always someone better than you. but among the modders and people that are researching/programming for fun, a bright mind to manage your skills, and a willpower to do that, will help you to be of no competition. i think sooner or later you'll get the job you want, but right now you can try to believe in yourself and do something more than you are doing every day(or die trying)... go read some books of self-motivation, and stop whining for god sake :)
finale00 wrote:I'd rather people create their own games and make something innovative rather than feeding that capitalist pig people talk about.
that's true when you're skilled enough to make something good. people are not very interested in "noname" games, it's much more interesting to mod some next gen games than to make a lame game with outdated graphics and game-play.

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Re: Dead or Alive series formats and tools

Post by rexil » Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:50 pm

b0ny wrote:that's true when you're skilled enough to make something good. people are not very interested in "noname" games, it's much more interesting to mod some next gen games than to make a lame game with outdated graphics and game-play.
Tell that to Notch.
A game in 2D with outdated graphics can be way more fun and enjoyable than any next gen games. in fact in most of the cases they are. Next gen games are just the same idea recycled over and over. The "noname" games are way more interesting and innovative than some crap we are getting lately. Just cause something have nice next gen graphics doesn't mean it's great or better than one that doesn't.

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Re: Dead or Alive series formats and tools

Post by howfie » Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:17 pm

So I started looking at this. Looks like same silly format as ninja gaiden sigma 2. Are afs containers specific to xbox360 games? If so I will put that code under xbox360.h.

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Re: Dead or Alive series formats and tools

Post by b0ny » Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:30 pm

rexil wrote:Tell that to Notch.
ok! where do i find him? :)
howfie wrote:Are afs containers specific to xbox360 games? If so I will put that code under xbox360.h.
if i'm not mistaken afs is a drimcast container.


i'm interested in porting doax moves to doau. so i had a look to "mot" animation format. i "deciphered" the "keyframe type 1", but still didn't tried it in action. any help in researching this format is appreciated. ill try to define here the mot format:
//header
a bunch of offsets to animations in this file. (this array ends with a null pointer)

//animation
a fixed number of offsets to animation data for each bodypart (i already posted it's structure like a page or two ago)

//the actual animation data
there are four types of key frames:
type 0 length = 5 WORDs including header
type 1 length = 2 WORDs including header
type 2 length = 3 WORDs including header
type 3 length = 4 WORDs including header
the animation ends on a keyframe with a null header
i yet only have been looking at the one with the length 1 (the easiest one - 1 keyframe per frame)

//key frame
8bits - part of "encoded float"
6bits - number Of Frames
2bits - animation Type
1WORD - encoded Float
... longer keyframes have more unknown data

lets have a hex example of a keyframe "type 1" (windows endian):
05f0 87ff

to resolve the "encoded float" i extract that red "f" from the first WORD, multiply it by 0x10000 and add it to the second WORD, and we get this number 0xfff87, now we divide this whole number to 10000(decimal) and we get the float we where looking for.
to resolve the number of frames we divide first byte by 4: { 05 / 4 = 1 frame }
to find the animation type we do this:
int animationType = 05 & 0xffffff00 //to throw away everything but the animation type
ok i know this is clumsy but if anyone is interested, - i can do better!

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Re: Dead or Alive series formats and tools

Post by Metalitia » Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:57 pm

I'm looking to use various models (including DoA, Rumble Roses, and others) to try my hand at rigging them for Poser 4 (and above).
Thing is, Poser only reads OBJ models, and the only converter I know of is the RR YOBJ converter for the models from RR1 on the PS2.

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Re: Dead or Alive series formats and tools

Post by mariokart64n » Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:08 pm

ok?
Maxscript and other finished work I've done can be found on my DeviantArt account

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Re: Dead or Alive series formats and tools

Post by XvSiriusvX » Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:49 pm

So I am making some outfit modifications for DOA2U and then Im trying to put them back in the game, but the characters end up invisible. Im assuming this is because I am not re-encoding the textures of the modified outfits, and so it refuses to read them. I remember hearing I require something like xprbreaker to re-encode them. Does anyone have that to download, or another way of re-encoding the files? Thanks.

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Re: Dead or Alive series formats and tools

Post by b0ny » Sat Mar 10, 2012 3:49 pm

XvSiriusvX wrote:So I am making some outfit modifications for DOA2U and then Im trying to put them back in the game, but the characters end up invisible. Im assuming this is because I am not re-encoding the textures of the modified outfits, and so it refuses to read them. I remember hearing I require something like xprbreaker to re-encode them. Does anyone have that to download, or another way of re-encoding the files? Thanks.
imo greed explorer is the best tool for this.


i've made a ng to doau converter. but:
- doau doesn't support some ng vertex formats and i think i'll try to "fix" these vertices to match the doau types.
- ng format doesn't have that "x,y,z,radius" thing, which is a bounding sphere for the mesh and is used to skip the mesh from rendering when the sphere is not visible(not in the viewport). i just filled this bounding sphere with nulls and the objects are not rendered correctly in the game. and greed explorer is ding trying to render such objects. i think i need to look through the mesh vertices for the max and min value for each coordinate then to calculate the average value for the xyz center, then look through the vertices again and find the farthest one from the center for the radius
CHAR szMagic[4]; // 'OBJ'
DWORD dwUnknown0; // Flexible vertex format ?
DWORD dwUnknown1; // Primitive Type ?
DWORD dwUnknown2; // Number of indices (total indices in IVBufInfo)
ST_IVBUFINFO pIVBufInfo[4]; // Indexed vertex buffers info
FLOAT fCenterX; // Object center x
FLOAT fCenterY; // Object center y
FLOAT fCenterZ; // Object center z
FLOAT fRadius; // Object radius
many ng skins team ninja already ported to doau. but there are a few left, i hope it's possible to port those too :)

some ng objects:
Image

i'd like to try to contribute to the xentax wikia. is this the only page dedicated to doa? : http://wiki.xentax.com/index.php/Dead_Or_Alive

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